I'm so glad you wrote about this! I listened to the podcast episode and kept waiting and waiting for them to bring up class... and it never happened. What a wasted opportunity!
Homogenization of culture / monoculture are real issues but people's perceived lack of personal taste is not the problem. Capitalism is.
I appreciate this piece. I think you’re right that Klein & Chayka have some of this backwards & aren’t explicitly mentioning class & privilege in the way that they should. Some of this seems wrapped up in a confusion over the right term to use. As someone else said in the comments section, maybe ‘discernment’ is a better term than style or taste to describe how big social media platforms & algorithms influence people’s abilities to judge for themselves what art they enjoy, what they believe politically, etc. I honestly blame Klein for that framing, more so than Chayka. Klein explicitly turned it into an individualistic framing, which is not what I see in much of Chayka’s work.
As a gentle pushback, I think that Chayka’s work (both in his book & his other published writing) is largely about the homogenization brought about by capitalism, & how big-business flattens culture. I definitely agree that there are many wonderful writers here & influencers elsewhere providing great critiques & analysis that informs taste, but I imagine Chayka’s pushback would be that these great individual efforts are not the main story of these massive social media platforms.
But anyways, really appreciate the piece, and i’m excited to read more!
I listened to the episode when it was making the rounds and didn’t really care for it but you’ve perfectly laid out what was problematic about it, especially in the way it dismissed the work of content creators on social media. I continue to get a lot out of the creators and writers I follow and it’s funny how the Chayka and Klein preached the idea of discovering things for ourselves but didn’t seem to realise that that’s exactly what many of us do on social media-we seek out what we want to learn more about! The idea that we’re just dumbly and passively consuming what’s fed to us by the algorithm is condescending and just plain wrong.
This review of the Kyle Chayka book is pretty on point too...I didn't read his book but after reading the review I'm more convinced than ever that he has nothing meaningful to contribute to this topic! I'm very disappointed in Ezra Klein! I've always found him to be a good interviewer on this podcast.
literally saved this just from reading the intro, amazing!! listened to the podcast when it was going around and kept waiting for them to get to the meat! thought i was missing something because i don't have a ton of social media (pretty much just substack, and then follow a few indiv. creators i check in on their respective platforms without creating an account) but I think you really summed it up well! i enjoyed when ezra klein talked about organic discovery of the music he enjoyed that no one had directed him to and how it feels when you realize that same enjoyment shows up in other areas without even realizing it, but felt like they ignored that he had only started that journey out of a desire to "get" classical music, which is of course tied to class markers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
YES "If anything, digital media has us scrambling to figure out how to reassert our social positions, and dominance for the privileged, via taste. "
Thank you for this careful rebuttal. I confess I didn't listen to the podcast but I had a feeling this would be the vibe. As if taste magically exists somewhere within us, #uninfuenced...
I thought about class stuff when Jenna told Jessell on Rhony she was wearing too many labels. On its surface, Jenna is in "good taste" (less labels) whilst Jessell is too "loud/new money". However it may be that Jessell is in fact higher status (in some ways?) than Jenna and thus can break rules...in the end she let Jenna check her, but...there was a lot there. (Maybe).
This is an excellent take! Especially given the current discourse regarding “quiet luxury” and other social media trends that circle back to class signaling.
Thissss 💯💯💯 it runs so deep. This is why the “quiet luxury” trend that had mainstream media in a chokehold over the past couple of months irked me so much. Deigning to prefer “stealth wealth” over “distasteful, new money” ostentatious displays of wealth is JUST another way for snobs to turn up their noses at people they consider “lower” class ie not as good as them. And the fact that so many middle-upper middle income bracket folk bought into it was giving capitalist dystopia a little ie in-fighting amongst the lower ranks in attempt to curry favor with the upper classes and be like them
Reading this brought up a lot of feelings for me; largely a realization that Klein/Chayka's conversation could- perhaps- be flawed. For many years I have allowed myself to be made to feel like I don't have taste and that I need to listen to my peers who do or, at least, dress like the influencers who have gained a following because (duh) they must have the taste that I don't. This line "Everyone has ‘taste’: we all know what we like, and we all judge those around us on their expressions of taste." was a burden reliever in that regard.
But, similarly, I took this feeling that "others know better than me" into listening to the interview with Chayka and allowed he and Klein's conversation about taste to be Truth when, in fact, it was OPINION
Anyways, I think I'm going to need to spend additional time considering the biases that I both brought to listening and that they brought to speaking!
I’ll probably read his book out of curiosity but even the title and subheading make me feel like Chayka’s issue (that comes through in the podcast) is PHONE BAD. that argument simply does not fly anymore with anyone marginalized online
ugh finally somebody said it!! been reading into veblen and bourdieu myself when i stumbled into that podcast thinking that it would be right down my alley, but nope. i respect klein's takes when it comes to other political matters so i was dumbfounded when i realized the utter lack of political/sociological view on this episode.
It seems the right term might be “discernment” whereas taste is a very specific type of judgement based on socio-economic factors that can be (is often) used as a tool of control and exclusion.
I’m curious how the terms differ for you? To me, discernment feels like a synonym of taste. Because who determines what style choices constitute a “lack” of discernment? I think the term is used in the same way taste is -- to exclude lower classed people who break classist norms of “appropriate” presentation.
Agree with your last point in that they are seemingly used similarly and so perhaps it’s wishful thinking on my part to think we can escape the use of judgment as a method of exclusion or control.
But hypothetically -- perhaps discernment is the place from where the author (+ Jesica Elise, whose writing on this led me here) are coming from: a seemingly other vantage point that sees how “taste” is weaponized & wielded by the dominant class and encourage us to seek alternatives.
I'm so glad you wrote about this! I listened to the podcast episode and kept waiting and waiting for them to bring up class... and it never happened. What a wasted opportunity!
Homogenization of culture / monoculture are real issues but people's perceived lack of personal taste is not the problem. Capitalism is.
I appreciate this piece. I think you’re right that Klein & Chayka have some of this backwards & aren’t explicitly mentioning class & privilege in the way that they should. Some of this seems wrapped up in a confusion over the right term to use. As someone else said in the comments section, maybe ‘discernment’ is a better term than style or taste to describe how big social media platforms & algorithms influence people’s abilities to judge for themselves what art they enjoy, what they believe politically, etc. I honestly blame Klein for that framing, more so than Chayka. Klein explicitly turned it into an individualistic framing, which is not what I see in much of Chayka’s work.
As a gentle pushback, I think that Chayka’s work (both in his book & his other published writing) is largely about the homogenization brought about by capitalism, & how big-business flattens culture. I definitely agree that there are many wonderful writers here & influencers elsewhere providing great critiques & analysis that informs taste, but I imagine Chayka’s pushback would be that these great individual efforts are not the main story of these massive social media platforms.
But anyways, really appreciate the piece, and i’m excited to read more!
I listened to the episode when it was making the rounds and didn’t really care for it but you’ve perfectly laid out what was problematic about it, especially in the way it dismissed the work of content creators on social media. I continue to get a lot out of the creators and writers I follow and it’s funny how the Chayka and Klein preached the idea of discovering things for ourselves but didn’t seem to realise that that’s exactly what many of us do on social media-we seek out what we want to learn more about! The idea that we’re just dumbly and passively consuming what’s fed to us by the algorithm is condescending and just plain wrong.
right?! this is so race/gender/class coded, it's nauseating. I think they're mad they can't as easily assert their taste. or something.
This review of the Kyle Chayka book is pretty on point too...I didn't read his book but after reading the review I'm more convinced than ever that he has nothing meaningful to contribute to this topic! I'm very disappointed in Ezra Klein! I've always found him to be a good interviewer on this podcast.
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/16/1225002436/book-review-kyle-chayka-filterworld
This is a great review! And I can’t help but sneering misogyny in his criticism of influencers, and social media. Thanks for sharing!
literally saved this just from reading the intro, amazing!! listened to the podcast when it was going around and kept waiting for them to get to the meat! thought i was missing something because i don't have a ton of social media (pretty much just substack, and then follow a few indiv. creators i check in on their respective platforms without creating an account) but I think you really summed it up well! i enjoyed when ezra klein talked about organic discovery of the music he enjoyed that no one had directed him to and how it feels when you realize that same enjoyment shows up in other areas without even realizing it, but felt like they ignored that he had only started that journey out of a desire to "get" classical music, which is of course tied to class markers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
feel like I regularly get more from Rian Phin's class/taste discussions on tiktok than I did from that whole podcast, essentially!
YES "If anything, digital media has us scrambling to figure out how to reassert our social positions, and dominance for the privileged, via taste. "
Thank you for this careful rebuttal. I confess I didn't listen to the podcast but I had a feeling this would be the vibe. As if taste magically exists somewhere within us, #uninfuenced...
I thought about class stuff when Jenna told Jessell on Rhony she was wearing too many labels. On its surface, Jenna is in "good taste" (less labels) whilst Jessell is too "loud/new money". However it may be that Jessell is in fact higher status (in some ways?) than Jenna and thus can break rules...in the end she let Jenna check her, but...there was a lot there. (Maybe).
This is an excellent take! Especially given the current discourse regarding “quiet luxury” and other social media trends that circle back to class signaling.
Yes!! Jesica Elise did a full breakdown on this and it is fascinating!!
Thissss 💯💯💯 it runs so deep. This is why the “quiet luxury” trend that had mainstream media in a chokehold over the past couple of months irked me so much. Deigning to prefer “stealth wealth” over “distasteful, new money” ostentatious displays of wealth is JUST another way for snobs to turn up their noses at people they consider “lower” class ie not as good as them. And the fact that so many middle-upper middle income bracket folk bought into it was giving capitalist dystopia a little ie in-fighting amongst the lower ranks in attempt to curry favor with the upper classes and be like them
Reading this brought up a lot of feelings for me; largely a realization that Klein/Chayka's conversation could- perhaps- be flawed. For many years I have allowed myself to be made to feel like I don't have taste and that I need to listen to my peers who do or, at least, dress like the influencers who have gained a following because (duh) they must have the taste that I don't. This line "Everyone has ‘taste’: we all know what we like, and we all judge those around us on their expressions of taste." was a burden reliever in that regard.
But, similarly, I took this feeling that "others know better than me" into listening to the interview with Chayka and allowed he and Klein's conversation about taste to be Truth when, in fact, it was OPINION
Anyways, I think I'm going to need to spend additional time considering the biases that I both brought to listening and that they brought to speaking!
appreciate this, totally hear you!
Love this take. I totally got what you were saying with the Taylor analogy, and laughed at the surprise in the footnotes!
Ha, thank you. I couldn’t edit it out bc it was too serendipitous!
I’ll probably read his book out of curiosity but even the title and subheading make me feel like Chayka’s issue (that comes through in the podcast) is PHONE BAD. that argument simply does not fly anymore with anyone marginalized online
so so so so good! thank you for laying all this out so neatly.
Spot on!
ugh finally somebody said it!! been reading into veblen and bourdieu myself when i stumbled into that podcast thinking that it would be right down my alley, but nope. i respect klein's takes when it comes to other political matters so i was dumbfounded when i realized the utter lack of political/sociological view on this episode.
Late to this party, but thank you for articulating so nicely what I felt was wrong with that podcast, and for bringing in Bourdieu.
It seems the right term might be “discernment” whereas taste is a very specific type of judgement based on socio-economic factors that can be (is often) used as a tool of control and exclusion.
I’m curious how the terms differ for you? To me, discernment feels like a synonym of taste. Because who determines what style choices constitute a “lack” of discernment? I think the term is used in the same way taste is -- to exclude lower classed people who break classist norms of “appropriate” presentation.
Agree with your last point in that they are seemingly used similarly and so perhaps it’s wishful thinking on my part to think we can escape the use of judgment as a method of exclusion or control.
But hypothetically -- perhaps discernment is the place from where the author (+ Jesica Elise, whose writing on this led me here) are coming from: a seemingly other vantage point that sees how “taste” is weaponized & wielded by the dominant class and encourage us to seek alternatives.
*more apt term; “right” sounds so moralistic
Reading this made my artist eyes roll back in my head.